Bacon Me Crazy
Chef Lawrence Rosenberg
Bacon Bites • Roseland, NJ by Len Boccassini
I first met Chef Lawrence Rosenberg during JerseyFest and the Food Truck Mash-Up at the Meadowlands in East Rutherford, New Jersey back in June. We were lured to his tent by a jovial mascot named “Smokey the Pig” who bobbed and weaved through the flowing masses of foodies and gleefully posed with a continuous stream of smiling teens, giggling children, and of course, the obligatory mom who was more often than not preoccupied with stroller control and corralling her entourage as opposed to picture-taking.
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But chocolate and bacon indeed have their irresistible pull and it was hard to miss that fact that “Smokey” never strayed far from the tent that housed the magnetism of this delectable combination. Also evident, was the fact that this life-sized plush, pink pig with a perpetual smile continuously seemed to let his most recent photo companion loose in the direction of a table of goodies that resided mere feet away; a vaguely distinguishable, yet repetitive happenstance I reasoned to occur less by chance and than by design. Friends, allow "showmanship" to meet "marketing". Like bacon and chocolate, it was a pairing that worked in harmonious unison.
We approached Chef Lawrence and I extended my hand. He unabashedly slapped a pair of pink “piggy” sunglasses across my palm while offering a genuine smile. I had barely noticed the slight pause in his greeting before he continued on in a matter-of-fact tone, “I know you.” I was somewhat taken aback. Flattered by the compliment of recognition, I gazed between my fingers at the bright shades that read “I Love Bacon Bites” and awkwardly waited amidst the momentary silence for a cue from someone – anyone - as to just how I should reply to the unexpected greeting. He continued to grin in my direction as I glanced toward my partner, Karen – who in less time than it takes to tell - was by now donning her own set of pink “piggy” glasses, and capped her comical fashion statement with a paper crown that screamed the message, “I Love Bacon!” That was all the cue I needed. I tried the shades on for size and cast a sincere, “Pleasure to meet you,” in the direction of the creator of all this delectable chaos.
We approached Chef Lawrence and I extended my hand. He unabashedly slapped a pair of pink “piggy” sunglasses across my palm while offering a genuine smile. I had barely noticed the slight pause in his greeting before he continued on in a matter-of-fact tone, “I know you.” I was somewhat taken aback. Flattered by the compliment of recognition, I gazed between my fingers at the bright shades that read “I Love Bacon Bites” and awkwardly waited amidst the momentary silence for a cue from someone – anyone - as to just how I should reply to the unexpected greeting. He continued to grin in my direction as I glanced toward my partner, Karen – who in less time than it takes to tell - was by now donning her own set of pink “piggy” glasses, and capped her comical fashion statement with a paper crown that screamed the message, “I Love Bacon!” That was all the cue I needed. I tried the shades on for size and cast a sincere, “Pleasure to meet you,” in the direction of the creator of all this delectable chaos.
Rosenberg, who is the creative and
entrepreneurial force behind the company, Bacon Bites, is in the business of
mixing chocolate with bacon while marketing the end result with his
own unique brand of zaniness. I've deemed his approach to business, "refreshing", but in doing so, I've perhaps uttered one of my
greatest understatements. However, that is exactly what it is –
refreshing. Rosenberg surrounds himself with an array of
attention grabbers – mascots, stickers, decals, hats, glasses,
greeting cards, plush toys, talking bacon and even a "Piggy Elvis" – all geared to attract
visitors to the main event; his bacon and chocolate. He conducts his
business beneath a virtual circus tent of whimsy, and within this
colorful and silly environment, Chef Larry is the master of
ceremonies. Kitschy? Perhaps. But it works on all levels.
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The mastermind behind Bacon Bites smiles easily and it's evident he thoroughly enjoys the absurdity of the world he's created in which to immerse his product. More importantly, he realizes the necessity to maintain a sense of humor each step of the way. As if to emphasis this point, the introduction to his newest cookbook, The Original Bacon Cookbook, reveals the offbeat manner in which he enjoys poking fun at himself: Born and raised as a nice Jewish Boy from Brooklyn, Chef Lawrence has had an “unorthodox” infatuation with bacon. For him, “oink” is the new “oy vey.”
His light-hearted approach appeals to the child in all of us and that is exactly the corridor he seeks to lead us through while discovering the allure of “Bacon Bites”.
His light-hearted approach appeals to the child in all of us and that is exactly the corridor he seeks to lead us through while discovering the allure of “Bacon Bites”.
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An Interview with CHEF LAWRENCE ROSENBERG, Proprietor, Bacon Bites
Your time spent in the food industry has afforded you quite an array of experiences from a number of different perspectives. From restaurateur to catering manager; from teacher at the New York Culinary School to director at the Roth Institute of Cake Decorating; from fast food to your most recent endeavor, Bacon Bites. How exactly would you describe Lawrence Rosenberg?
Well, I would have to define myself as a bit of a nut with a great sense of humor (laughs). I say that mainly because in doing what I do, you have to have a great sense of humor. Outside of being a nut, I did start out in the restaurant business as a chef, so I do consider myself a “chef” first and foremost. However, I was also in the baking and cake decorating business for quite some time. In fact, my first cookbook was a book on cake decorating (Cake Decorating Simplified). That one was for the Book-of-the-Month Club. My second book was called, Muffins & Cupcakes, and then I did a third cookbook called, The Berry Book. I also made wedding cakes for a time. Today, it seems everyone has a specialty – "who's a pastry chef, who's an executive chef." Me? I guess I'm one of those rare ones – I cook and I bake.
We can't forget to add “Restaurateur” beside your list of credentials as a Chef, Baker and Author. With that said, I'm interested in hearing about your experience as a former restaurant owner in New York City. Can you tell us a little about the establishment and what it was like?
Sure. I, along with a couple of partners, owned a restaurant on 63rd Street between Second and Third called, "Tucci". We bought the place back in 1998 and actually, didn't change all that much about it. It was a nice place that served Italian food. We did a great brick-oven pizza and it was really well-known for that. The restaurant had some 400 seats on two levels and had a second kitchen in the basement. The Mesa Grill was right around the corner from us, so we'd get a lot of the celebrities dropping in. "Rocky" Aoki who owned Benihana was down the street from us and Brook Shields lived directly across the street. Donald Trump ate there a few times. The singer George Michael would come in. Dick Clark. Even Mayor Giuliani once came in to eat. Cindy Adams ate at the place and gave us a two-star review. It was all a lot fun. But you know, the city is tough. It's so competitive. We owned it for about 2 years and sold it. I haven't been to that part of New York in quite awhile, but the last I heard it had become a Kosher Sushi restaurant (laughs). Can you imagine that – from Northern Italian to Kosher Sushi!
You've taken on more of a entrepreneurial role these days, as your company “Bacon Bites” seems to just have exploded upon the scene. For those still unacquainted with Bacon Bites, you're making your mark with an array of products that combine two of America's favorites – bacon and chocolate – to delicious results. I was hoping you would share the tale of the “happy accident” that led to the delectable pairing.
Well, it all actually began back in 2010. It was around Halloween and I was doing some private catering for a friend of mine. She is typically a bit “over the top” in how she does things - a great person, mind you - but just really “over the top” in everything she does and this affair was going to be no different. Anyway, I was preparing some chocolate truffles and although I was cooking at her place, I was doing a lot of the prep work at home in my kitchen. In addition to the truffles, I was also getting ready to do some bacon-wrapped shrimp as well as some bacon-wrapped lobster - so there was bacon in this bowl and chocolate in that bowl - stuff everywhere.
To make a long story short, I had gone upstairs and had gotten a phone call. I was up there for quite some time and when I finally got back down to the kitchen, I couldn't find the bacon. It wasn't long before I found that my partner, Kane, had accidentally placed the bacon in a bowl of chocolate and covered it up. |
I opened the bowl and it was really a nasty mess. The chocolate hadn't
hardened yet, so it was soft and it was greasy... really just a terrible
mess. As I stared into the bowl, I started to think. At that point in time, I'd been hearing a lot of whispering about “bacon”. I'd heard that Jack-In-the-Box was doing a bacon milkshake of some sort, which although it sounded absolutely disgusting to me, it seemed to be popular. The same with Jones (Soda), who were marketing a bacon soda. Again, something that sounded less-than-appealing to me. I'd also heard Burger King was planning something similar. At the time, it seemed that everywhere you looked, there was some new product based on bacon.
I stood in the kitchen and continued to stare into the bowl. I looked up at Kane and said, "You know, I'm getting older and maybe this is gonna be the next big thing. Maybe we got something here."
So I removed a couple of pieces of bacon from the chocolate and set them on paper to let them dry. In truth, it was gross and disgusting and nasty tasting, and there was the grease from the bacon - it was just not very nice at all. But I felt we were on to something and from that time, I spent almost a year and a half playing with it because I just knew it would work.
I stood in the kitchen and continued to stare into the bowl. I looked up at Kane and said, "You know, I'm getting older and maybe this is gonna be the next big thing. Maybe we got something here."
So I removed a couple of pieces of bacon from the chocolate and set them on paper to let them dry. In truth, it was gross and disgusting and nasty tasting, and there was the grease from the bacon - it was just not very nice at all. But I felt we were on to something and from that time, I spent almost a year and a half playing with it because I just knew it would work.
And that was it? That's the story of "Next Big Thing"?
Not really. When I began all this I knew nothing about the chocolate business. I was using compound in a double boiler. I'd make the bacon in a friend's restaurant, and in our kitchen at home, we'd have these rows of tables set up covered with sheets and plastic. We'd have the windows open and the air conditioning on trying to cool everything down. It took us about a week to produce 60 three-packs. When we were finally done, a friend of mine named Gary Fisch – who owns Gary's Wine & Marketplace - was nice enough to let me come into his store and stand there with my product. I had already come up with the logo of the pig with the chocolate dripping down its sides and called it "Bacon Bites". Gary thought I was an absolute nut. He really did. I'm sure he just went along with everything because he figured he was just helping another Jewish guy.
Nutty or not, I was determined and I stood there in the front of his store with my fifty or sixty boxes. I also had some broken pieces and samples, and I asked every person who passed if they'd like to try some of my chocolate-covered bacon. And you know what? You would either walk past me or you would laugh at me or you would look at me like I was a martian with a third eye in the middle of my head or... you tried it.
After about an hour and a half of doing this, I went up to Gary and asked if I could try it again sometime in the near future. He looked at me with this puzzled look and said, "I gave you three hours to do this and you're leavin' already?" I laughed and told him to go look in the register; everything was gone. We'd sold it all. Not only had we moved all of the product, but we got a lot of feedback.
Nutty or not, I was determined and I stood there in the front of his store with my fifty or sixty boxes. I also had some broken pieces and samples, and I asked every person who passed if they'd like to try some of my chocolate-covered bacon. And you know what? You would either walk past me or you would laugh at me or you would look at me like I was a martian with a third eye in the middle of my head or... you tried it.
After about an hour and a half of doing this, I went up to Gary and asked if I could try it again sometime in the near future. He looked at me with this puzzled look and said, "I gave you three hours to do this and you're leavin' already?" I laughed and told him to go look in the register; everything was gone. We'd sold it all. Not only had we moved all of the product, but we got a lot of feedback.
During our time there, we asked people about the packaging, the taste and their thoughts on the product. Gary had us back several times after that and it got us moving in the right direction. It was just great. We really did our market research in a retail environment.
It's obvious you have struck upon a fantastic product that is both delicious and fun to eat, but do you feel that bacon being at its height of popularity has had a direct impact upon your company's level of success? Oh, absolutely. I like to think I'm an educated man, but I also consider myself street smart and I pay very close attention to what's going on in the world, particularly what the latest trends are in the food industry. For example, a couple of years back “cupcakes” seemed to be the hot item. There were TV shows and competitions and so forth. Before you knew it, everybody and their brother was opening cupcake businesses. Everywhere you looked, there were cupcakes. Even so, I just knew it wasn't going to last. I thought it was just a fad and sure enough, a couple of years later, they're all disappearing.
Last year it was “frozen yogurt”. In my neighborhood alone, six yogurt businesses opened in just a two mile area. One survived. Trends change. Fads come and go. Bacon, however, I don't see it going away; at least anytime soon. People are just obsessed with it. By all appearances, “Bacon” has really become mainstream. It's versatile. It's delicious. It's more than a trend. I mean, unless you're a vegetarian or unless you stay away from it for religious reasons, people eat bacon. It's huge. There's beef bacon, turkey bacon, vegetarian bacon; really it's just out there and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. |
It's hard to imagine from that humble start in your kitchen, you now cook 30,000 to 40,000 pounds of bacon and utilize over 100,000 pounds of chocolate a year. With no advertising budget and no brick and mortar location, how does that happen in a mere two years?
Again, it happened because bacon became very, very hot. There's been a
bacon explosion and the timing was right for something like this. But
also, you have to get the product out there. In addition to the shows
and festivals I do, I began doing a wholesale business and selling my
products to Bacon Addicts and Bacon Mall. They not only are they selling it for me, but they're advertising it for me. It's all about getting out there. I also formed a new company called "Pickle Bites" and I'll be doing the Picklefest
in Rosendale where I'll be offering my chocolate-covered pickles and
chocolate-covered pickles with bacon. This is all in addition to the
retail I'm doing. I'm out of my mind (laughs).
I don't want to mistakenly give anyone the impression that Larry's "all work, no play". In fact, when we first met, I remember you handed me a pair of pink "piggy" glasses. It was a great ice-breaker and I felt your approach to how you conducted business was refreshing to say the least. I've since been told you're often referred to as "P.T. Bacon". Can you elaborate?
My marketing strategy is simple and hasn't changed since the beginning. What I do is continually ask myself the question, "How do I get people to my booth?"
Well, I put the product in a clear box so it could easily be seen, but the problem always seemed to center around getting you to my booth to see it and taste it. I knew once I did that, half the problem was solved. But still, "How do I get you there?" I found that although adults would occasionally walk over, it always seemed to be hit or miss. I soon realized that at most of these festivals and shows that I was doing, there were always a lot kids on hand. And each kid was usually attached to an adult. Problem solved. Since I couldn't get the adults to come over on their own, perhaps I could get the kids to come over and bring their parents over with them. I used the piggy concept to create a fun environment with a lot of things children would like. I started out with the pink, stuffed pigs and the kids loved them. Every time someone walked by you'd hear, “Mommy, I want a pig. Mommy, I want a pig,” and sure enough, nine out of ten times, they'd come over. Then we came out with the sun glasses. We also knew kids love stickers, so we came up with those cute piggy stickers. We have magnets and all kinds of stuff and souvenirs... and of course, my partner, Kane, who dresses as “Smokey The Pig”. Everybody loves Smokey and everyone wants a picture. After that came the real stroke of genius - the "paper hat" or as I like to say, my “walking billboard”. It's hard to believe how many people walk around these festivals with a pig on their head advertising, "Bacon Bites". There's stickers on baby carriages and wheel chairs, and children walking around with plush piggies. I sometimes get three thousand hats moving around a festival. That's a lot of free advertising. |
My marketing strategy is simple and hasn't changed since the beginning. What I do is continually ask myself the question, "How do I get people to my booth?" |
I remember when I first started doing this, people looked at me like I was out of my mind. They thought I was bonkers. Now, a couple of years later, people wait on line for hours to buy my chocolate-covered bacon products. They also come by to get the hats and the stickers and the decals and the magnets. And they love the toys like the “Talking Bacon”. Everybody wants it. Everybody loves it. It's all about having fun. It's a fun product. It's a a crazy product. And that's exactly how I run the show - like a circus. My friends call me “P.T. Bacon” (laughs).
Well, that sense of fun seems to have even spilled over into the world of television, as Bacon Bites has appeared on the Destination America's show "United States of Bacon" hosted by Chef Todd Fisher. What was that experience like?
That actually happened while we were doing the Bacon Festival with iAdventure in New York. A couple of days before the festival I was told I'd be getting a call from Sharp Entertainment because they'd be doing a piece for the “United States of Bacon” show. I signed the releases and so forth and they did the shoot. Unfortunately, Todd Fisher didn't seem to know how to say “Bacon Bites”, because he mistakenly called it “Bacon Bark” while it aired. But I guess it was okay because at least they showed my product while he said it. Still, all in all, it was great publicity.
Okay, let's get to the nut and bolts of "Bacon Bites". What are some of your products and what seems to be your most popular item? |
My very first product was what we call the Original Chocolate-covered Bacon - three strips of chocolate-covered bacon. Full strips, real bacon, crispy bacon, dark chocolate, real chocolate. I don't do anything with compounds anymore. We spent a lot of time perfecting the process as well as a great deal of time on the packaging. We settled on a clear, tamper-proof box that holds the product in a sealed plastic bag. That gives the product a one year shelf life with no refrigeration, which to me, is unbelievable. That's where I spent all my time; figuring out the drying process and how to get rid of the grease that diminishes the quality of the product - which we managed to do. We finished the packaging off with a card that gives the nutritional value of the product, the cute Bacon Bites logo, and a pink ribbon with brown polka dots.
Not long after that, a friend of mine suggested I do something with peanut butter. He'd said, “Everybody loves peanut butter. You gotta do something with peanut butter.”
At first I wasn't so sure about it, but I thought about it and began
experimenting with a smoked peanut butter in a squeeze bottle. It was a
lot of work doing it that way and it never really turned out the way I
wanted it to. Then I figured, "Look, you're a cake decorator and know how to use a pastry bag," and
that's exactly what I did. I'd make a squiggle along each strip of
bacon and it worked perfectly. Of course it's all done by machine now,
but that's how the Peanut Butter Chocolate-covered Bacon
began. We packaged it the same way as the Original, but gave it a blue
ribbon with brown polka dots to differentiate between the two. It's
really caught on and has become one of our biggest sellers. I'm also
proud to say that it won “Best Dessert” at BaconFest in Florida in 2013.
Then there's our Chocolate-covered Double Stuf Oreo's, which are incredibly popular, as are the Chocolate-covered Twinkies. I tried doing pretzels, but initially, I didn't care for for how they turned out at all. I dropped the pretzels for a time and instead, began working with molded chocolates. I had “pig face” molds and wanted to do something a little bit different. So after a little bit of experimenting, we spiced up the chocolate with hot pepper flakes and chili oils, and of course, bacon, and came up with something we called, Angry Pigs. Angry Pigs come two-to-a-box, and although they aren't huge movers, they fill a niche for those who enjoy a little bit of spice in their chocolate. They are still available on our website. |
We tried a lot of different things and are always trying to do something new. I'm a stickler for that because I always felt we needed “new” products at the festivals and shows we were doing. For a while we were doing so many big things - things like 5-pound Bacon-stuffed Pigs - that it was just getting crazy. I knew we needed something simpler and for that, we came out with a 2-ounce Candy Bar. It looks like a NESTLE Crunch Bar, but when you break it open, instead of crispies, there are pieces of bacon. At about the same time, I also went back to the drawing board on the pretzels and I'm glad we did because I found a better method. Instead of incorporating bacon pieces into the chocolate – which nobody knew what was in there – we now sprinkle it on top. Now, we've got three flavors - sprinkled bacon, peanut butter chips and pepper flakes, as well as plain, and people really seem to like them.
Next came the item that is so simple, yet truly genius - Pig Poop. I take all the broken pieces and scraps of our products and package it in a cute little pig box and call it Pig Poop. The best part is not only that it's a great seller, but in doing this, I have absolutely no waste with my product. And people love it. In fact, it became so popular, I decided to package it with my own Piggy Wipes because you know you have to clean up after the pig (laughs). Seriously, this item has gotten me so much press it is just amazing. People love good dark chocolate and the packaging, and name gives them a reason to laugh. It's great.
I've recently been in talks with Walgreen's and BJ's, and both stores want to carry my product. But in talking to them; as well as some sales guys and marketing guys, I came away with the impression that right now people really seem to want bags. This year everything is mini. Bite-sized. Take it and eat it. So with that in mind, we came out with our latest item - Bacon Bites - bite-sized chocolate-covered bacon pieces. Walgreen's will carry it in a 2-ounce bag and BJ's in a 5-ounce bag. I'm thinking you'll see them appear around Valentine's Day. |
Wow, that is just fantastic news. The high quality of your product line is undeniable. But do you believe your drying process and doing away with the oil and the grease presented by the bacon are what separates your product from the rest? Well, you must understand that many of those who are trying to do something similar are not Chocolatiers, Len. They simply buy compound. You can buy that anywhere. Even craft stores like Michael's sells compound. It's easy to do. You don't have to temper it. It doesn't take very much knowledge to use and it hides a lot of mistakes. You can't do that with real chocolate. You need to get rid of that grease to have a great product. And that's what we do.
"I gave them something that would be good and tasty without a whole lot of ingredients; a cookbook where the star would absolutely be bacon." I know you are very hands-on in the preparation of each of your products. Are they prepared and packaged locally? |
The bacon is cooked in Belleville, New Jersey in a commercial kitchen. Once cooked, I take the product and bring it out to the factory in Bensalem, Pennsylvania where we enrobe it in chocolate and package it. Then I bring it all back and ship everything from here. I need to do that in order to maintain control over the quality of the product and the customer service aspect. I do a lot of events so I need the product here at all times. Also, whenever we get an online order from the website, I ship it out the same day. Nobody waits.
Well, it seems as if "P.T. Bacon" does indeed put on one of the greatest shows on earth. And if that isn't enough, you've just published your fourth cookbook – The Original Bacon Cookbook. Tell us about it.
Well, it was released on Halloween and it contains some of my favorite recipes using bacon. I really did it for all the bacon fanatics out there. At the shows and festivals I attend, people are always asking me, "Do you have a recipe for candied bacon? How do you make this? How do you make that?" So I took the basics - hamburgers, meatballs, BLT's, Mac and Cheese, Steak, Ice Cream - and I say to those bacon lovers, “Here are my recipes.” I gave them something that would be good and tasty without a whole lot of ingredients; a cookbook where the star would absolutely be bacon.
In browsing through The Original Bacon Cookbook, two recipes in particular caught my eye -The Elvis Piggly Panini and Maple Bacon Crunch Ice Cream. Any one recipe you can recommend as a “must try”?
Elvis Piggly is just to die for. And those who tried the ice cream during the photo session for the book thought it was really good. But my favorite item in the book is absolutely the Maple Bacon Steaks. Half inch thick slabs of bacon, maple syrup, salt and pepper. Simple, but delicious. And of course, my Bacon Burgers. All pork, bacon inside and bacon outside - truly for bacon lovers. Bacon ya crazy (laughs)!
Where can one purchase the book? It's available on our website, Baconbites.com. It's also available on Amazon.com, but with all the bacon books out there, be sure to type in “The Original Bacon Book” (or simply click the preceding link). It's only $7.95 and if you order it from the Bacon Bites website, we'll offer you free shipping. So that saves you a little bit of cash as opposed to ordering it from Amazon. I'll also sign each copy that's ordered from our website. It truly makes a great gift for any bacon lover.
Larry, you do not appear to be one to shy away from expanding your horizons. I'm almost afraid to ask what's next for Bacon Bites. Perhaps a brick and mortar location? |
No. I will never do a brick and mortar. Never. I'm actually looking into a Mercedes Sprinter right now. I'll have a window put in and have it wrapped with our logo and design. That would make events and festivals a whole lot easier for me. It would makes things a lot simpler. I like simple. And for me, those festivals are what I enjoy. A lot of people may not understand that because, yeah, I'm doing wholesale with large accounts like Walgreen's and BJ's who will take 770,000 bags of my product off my hands – and yes, it's a lot of money at the end of the day, but it's also a lot of work. On the other hand, I can take this bag and go and do a festival and sell it retail and I'm a much happier camper. And at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. Happy. What can I say besides, "Hey, I'm a Jew and we like sheckles (laughs)."
So where exactly can Bacon and Chocolate addicts get their fix once they become hooked on your goodies? They can get most of our products on our website, Baconbites.com. They're also available on Amazon and we have an eBay store as well. And of course, you can come and see us at any one of the many festivals, shows and events we do regularly.
Ah, yes, the festivals. We'll just have to keep an eye out for the “I Love Bacon” hats. |
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Please visit us at: BaconBites.com for products, merchandise and upcoming shows and events. |
Chef Lawrence Rosenberg, Proprietor, Bacon Bites
Graduate of Pratt University, New York City
Former owner of Tucci Restaurant, New York City Former Catering Manager at Grace's (Balducci) Marketplace, NYC Taught at New York Restaurant School Former Director at at the Roth Institute of Cake Decorating Proprietor of Bacon Bites (2012 to present) Author of: Cake Decorating Simplified, Muffins and Cupcakes, The Berry Book, The Original Bacon Cookbook Published in: Weddings By: Martha Stewart, Lady's Home Journal, Women's Day TV Appearances: United States of Bacon with Todd Fisher Winner of Best Dessert (Peanut Butter Bacon), Bacon Fest 2013, Florida |